My Personal Letter to "Frank Vance"
About an hour ago, I got off the phone with my pastor who contacted John Duncan (an employee at Ligonier) and talked with him for a good bit about the whole situation regarding Frank Vance. First, Duncan and the rest of the employees at Ligonier are greatly stressed about the situation. This person or persons "Frank Vance" (which is a pseudonym by the way), has posted the personal information of Ligonier employees and certain members of the alliance for all the world to see. This has inevitably led to death threats coming at Ligonier left and right, stalkers taking pictures of the Sproul family home and threatening to break in, and constant, malcious, harassment. Duncan told my pastor that Frank Vance's theories were nothing but lies and that Kistler himself has said a number of times that none of what has been reported is true. Ligonier attempted to contact Vance and sit down with him so that he could express his concerns. Turns out Vance is impossible to find, his identity unverifiable and shrouded in mystery. This is an open letter written to this monster who calls himself Frank Vance. I pray for his repentance and earnestly beseech all readers of this blog to pray for the Sproul family and Ligonier during this time.
Dear Frank,
My name is Jordan and I write to you with a deep concern over what has been transpiring over the past few weeks. I'm going to get right to the point. This whole ordeal began because you claimed that Tim Dick conned Don Kistler by removing an important article of a contract which seriously benefitted Ligonier and hurt Kistler. The whole premise of your argument from the beginning was foundationless. You had no proof to back up your story, you offered no proof to back up your story, and you (very successfully) attempted to persuade people through your testimony alone. It boggles my mind to think that so many Christians have bought into this hoax, and I write to you hoping that you'll realize your error and stop the nonsense. I attend a Reformed Baptist Church in Northeast PA, and my pastor is very good friends with Don Kistler. My pastor has talked to Don many times since this whole ordeal began and Don repeatedly tells him that there is not even a hint of truth to any of your claims. Don and R.C. are the best of friends, Don and Ligonier have a great relationship, and Soli Deo Gloria now has the appropriate funds to actually become an even better publisher than they were before (keep in mind that Soli was nearly bankrupt when Ligonier and Kistler merged.) My pastor has contacted people who work at Ligonier and they have expressed a serious fear for what is going on. Family's are being threatened, death threats are being held out to specific employees of Ligonier, stalkers are harassing the Sproul and Dick families, and what makes this worse....Ligonier has no idea who in the world "Frank Vance" even is! According to Ligonier, you've secured your site so well that no one can even figure out who you are. You talk alot about Ligonier sinning by suing you. Can you blame them? After a month of harassment, threats (which you have spawned), and untrue, deceitful statements, they were left with no other choice. According to those involved in the situation, Ligonier tried to get you to sit down with them so that you could express your concerns. Let me tell you how upset I am that you would have the audacity to list the phone numbers and personal adresses of employees at Ligonier and members from the Alliance. No doubt, YOU are the reason that the harassment and the threats continue. You are fueling the fire, and if someone ends up hurt or dead ( you never know what a person on the internet with unrestricted access to certain persons' phone numbers and adresses might do) it will be your fault. I'm amazed that you even call yourself a Christian. Shame on you for your deceit. Shame on you for revealing the personal information of godly men and exposing it to the millions of undiscerning and dangerous people who surf the web. You need to repent for your actions. The Lord Jesus Christ will hold you accountable for your unjust deeds of darkness, if not in this life, then at the last judgement. Leave Ligonier alone and stop the lies.
Jordan D. H.
Dear Frank,
My name is Jordan and I write to you with a deep concern over what has been transpiring over the past few weeks. I'm going to get right to the point. This whole ordeal began because you claimed that Tim Dick conned Don Kistler by removing an important article of a contract which seriously benefitted Ligonier and hurt Kistler. The whole premise of your argument from the beginning was foundationless. You had no proof to back up your story, you offered no proof to back up your story, and you (very successfully) attempted to persuade people through your testimony alone. It boggles my mind to think that so many Christians have bought into this hoax, and I write to you hoping that you'll realize your error and stop the nonsense. I attend a Reformed Baptist Church in Northeast PA, and my pastor is very good friends with Don Kistler. My pastor has talked to Don many times since this whole ordeal began and Don repeatedly tells him that there is not even a hint of truth to any of your claims. Don and R.C. are the best of friends, Don and Ligonier have a great relationship, and Soli Deo Gloria now has the appropriate funds to actually become an even better publisher than they were before (keep in mind that Soli was nearly bankrupt when Ligonier and Kistler merged.) My pastor has contacted people who work at Ligonier and they have expressed a serious fear for what is going on. Family's are being threatened, death threats are being held out to specific employees of Ligonier, stalkers are harassing the Sproul and Dick families, and what makes this worse....Ligonier has no idea who in the world "Frank Vance" even is! According to Ligonier, you've secured your site so well that no one can even figure out who you are. You talk alot about Ligonier sinning by suing you. Can you blame them? After a month of harassment, threats (which you have spawned), and untrue, deceitful statements, they were left with no other choice. According to those involved in the situation, Ligonier tried to get you to sit down with them so that you could express your concerns. Let me tell you how upset I am that you would have the audacity to list the phone numbers and personal adresses of employees at Ligonier and members from the Alliance. No doubt, YOU are the reason that the harassment and the threats continue. You are fueling the fire, and if someone ends up hurt or dead ( you never know what a person on the internet with unrestricted access to certain persons' phone numbers and adresses might do) it will be your fault. I'm amazed that you even call yourself a Christian. Shame on you for your deceit. Shame on you for revealing the personal information of godly men and exposing it to the millions of undiscerning and dangerous people who surf the web. You need to repent for your actions. The Lord Jesus Christ will hold you accountable for your unjust deeds of darkness, if not in this life, then at the last judgement. Leave Ligonier alone and stop the lies.
Jordan D. H.
posted by ReformedVictorious at 1:03 PM
8 Comments:
Dear Jordan,
You left a comment on my blog that is similar to what you posted here. I am glad you are so interested in serving and pleasing the Lord. However, I think I need some more information about what you've written here, please. I don't want to swallow what you say here "hook line and sinker" (as you put it), so I would like hard evidence for the specific allegations you make here. I told you I would not post your comment until you provided evidence, but I decided to post your comment anyway. You have made some extremely serious charges here, and you need to have some evidence to back them up. Just because “John Duncan” says so is not good enough. I have known him to lie repeatedly. Here is a list of the charges you make that I would like evidence for: [my comments are in brackets after your words to me]
"frank vance" (which is indeed a pseudonym) claimed that Tim Dick and Ligonier conned Don Kistler. THERE IS NO SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THESE OUTRAGEOUS CLAIMS. [How do you know this? Show me evidence for your side.]
death threats have been coming at Ligonier left and right [Show me proof.]
people have been harassing the Sproul and Dick families sending them hate mail and threatening to kill them and thier families [More proof]
people have stalked employees of Ligonier [proof]
taking pictures of their houses and threatening to break in. [proof, again]
These are just a few of the things that are happening [what else is happening?]
supporting Frank Vance [in what way have I supported Frank Vance?]
swallowing hook line and sinker Vance's foundationless and unproven assertions [Do you take me as gullible and naïve and not able to get a story on my own? Are you saying I haven’t checked anything out for myself?]
writing against Ligonier [Is there anything I have written that is not documented, as I am asking you to do?]
you are fueling the fires of harassment, death threats, and needless pain [Christians are behaving this way? Provide proof, please.]
Frank Vance, in a spirit of division [Do you know Frank Vance’s true heart and motivation?]
began this whole ordeal by making an untrue and deceitful assertion [Are you so sure? Provide evidence.}
He is the reason for the whole ensuing ordeal [Frank Vance, a nobody? Or Ligonier, by their sins?]
I'm dissapointed that you would be taken in so easily by these liars [Do you know that to be true? I’ve had some people email me privately to ask about it, but you just want to assume that I would fall “hook, line, and sinker” for a nobody’s comments about a ministry I deeply love. You’d better be more careful with your words!]
I thank you for your deep concern and pray that you would investigate a little further for yourself to see whether these things be true!
One thing that John Duncan told me was that Frank Vance threatened Tim Dick's life. Having a very difficult time believing that, I asked how. He said it was when Frank said that Tim not answering his allegations was like "holding a knife to his own throat." Does this figure of speech really sound like a death threat? I don't think anyone would seriously be afraid for their life based upon a figure of speech!
I have a feeling there is a logical explanation for all the other wild accusations as well.
Jordon, If you believe that Ligoneir (anyone there) tried to sit down with Frank Vance, you are sadly mistaken. I have been following the Sprouls since Jr got defrocked and have had interaction with Frank for over a year.
Tim asked for more time before the allegations about Kistler came out. Now, we find out that he asked for more time because he was preparing a lawsuit! He never told Vance that. He was trying to shut him up legally! It did not work and it was reported in the Orlando Sentinel for all the see. Why didn't Tim just tell Vance the allegations were a lie? Why the deception?
Jordon, are Christians supposed to sue? Why not be wronged as Peter said? Are you sure you trust Ligoneir's teachings anymore? Sproul has taught on the sin of filing lawsuits. How can you follow someone who does not practice what they preach?
All we have seen since the lawsuit are more lies, bullying tactics, etc. That is why most of us do not believe these latest tactics of death threats.
If they are true, which I doubt based on track record of their lies, then I hope they are calling the police.
Be careful whom you follow. Follow Christ and love truth.
Jen-
I have two options. Believe the assertions of an obscure blogger who has repeatedly attacked Ligonier without evidence (it's obvious that I don't need evidence for that as Frank's blog clearly reveals what I am saying), or I'm going to believe the assertions of men who I KNOW to be godly and who have, for generations, been anchors of truth in a sinful culture. Frankly Jen, I think it's ridiculous to say that I need proof for the assertion that Frank Vance's arguments are foundationless with no evidence. Why would I need to prove this assertion when frank vance has proved this assertion by accusing ligonier without providing any evidence. you want my evidence Jen? Read Vance's blogs. That's evidence enough that his arguments about Kistler and Ligonier are foundationless. Let me ask you a question jen...If you were receiving death threats, being harassed, stalked, and verbally abused, and you tried to tell others about what was going on, how would you feel if they just blew you off with disdain (like you have done by claiming that I need proof for my assetion that Ligonier is being harassed.) Frankly, I trust R.C. and the people at Ligonier, because they are Christians who are making genuine statemenets, and relating real fears. I trust them, and I do not trust Frank Vance. The proof of my assertions (pertaining to Vance's lack of credibility), are to be found in his own hateful words on his blogsite. Oh yeah.. And I never said that I agreed with ligonier suing Frank Vance. What I do agree with, is thier intolerance of harassment. Your all a bunch of naieve simpletons who are following the words of an unknown fanatic over and against R.C. Sproul and his family who have been stalwarts of biblical truth for generations.
"Your all a bunch of naieve simpletons who are following the words of an unknown fanatic over and against R.C. Sproul and his family who have been stalwarts of biblical truth for generations. "
Jordon, it is 'you all' are a...
but anyway, does that sound nice?
By the way, the Sprouls live in a gated community so they should be safe. Have you asked them if they have reported these death threats? Then can have their phones tapped.
You have chosen to be blind. They are not godly people. This goes way back. They do NOT live what they teach. What is more hypocritical than that? Have you read the Table Talk issue where Sproul teaches against lawsuits of any kind for any reason? Guess not.
I have two options. Believe the assertions of an obscure blogger who has repeatedly attacked Ligonier without evidence [or] to believe the assertions of men who I KNOW to be godly and who have, for generations, been anchors of truth in a sinful culture."
Actually, Jordan, you have three options. The third option, taken by Jen, by myself, and by many other posters, is to check for yourself to confirm what is and is not true. That isn't possible for every allegation, of course, but it is possible for many.
If you bothered to check anything for yourself before slandering other Christians, you would have discovered, like the rest of us, that everything you could confirm supported Frank Vance and not Ligonier. A few examples:
(1) The fact that a lawsuit was filed in the first place. My wife and I were lied to repeatedly by Ligionier customer service reps and once by John Duncan that "there is no lawsuit; we don't know where that idea came from." Then I called the court to check, and the clerk told me it did exist. Later it was posted on the web, and I read it for myself. It was only then, when further denial was beyond ridiculous that Ligonier admitted the lawsuit existed, only to lie again with that admission:
(2) The lie that the lawsuit was "withdrawn." This claim was made by Ligonier Senior Management in a statement placed on Ligonier's website. This was a lie when the statement was placed before the world. It wasn't until the week after that Ligonier's leadership even signed the document to dismiss the lawsuit. How do I know? Because I called the court. The clerks will tell you when the document was signed and when it was finally filed. In fact, it has been scanned and it now available on the web. Why won't you check for yourself?
Are you really so determined to worship your theological heroes that you not only refuse to check anything out for yourself but also insist on defending them publicly to share in their shame? Why are you content to be so easily used?
"You [are] all a bunch of naive simpletons who are following the words of an unknown fanatic over and against R.C. Sproul and his family who have been stalwarts of biblical truth for generations."
No, Jordan, you are the naive one. You are the simpleton. We check things out. That's why we believe Frank Vance, not Ligonier, because a host of witnesses and much documented evidence are all testifying against Ligonier, which has repeatedly lied to each of us.
(3) Another thing: twice, now, you have proclaimed how great the Sproul family have been for generations? Really? Have you read the church court documents of RC Sproul, Jr's defrocking. They are on the web, many signed by multiple witnesses. Don't need to, because it's internet gossip?
Well, you do need to go read them, because Jr. confessed to a whole bunch of abuses, including theft of a Tax ID number of another denomination. That's a felony, and only one of the reasons Jr. and his whole board of elders were defrocked by their presbytery in a unanimous vote. Is that being a "stalwart of biblical truth?"
(4) And what about the third generation, led by Ryan Dick? I saw myself his filthy, obscenity-laced Myspace website before it was taken down. One of his hobbies was "spending a sh*tload of money wherever I go." He also boasted on another website I saw (also hastily taken down without apology) of his three house, each of which twice as big as a normal house; of going to work at Ligonier hours late and leaving whenever he pleased while being paid by donors like me; of inheriting his "family business," which he defended even when a Jewish poster pointed out that you don't get to inherit a public charity. Is this another generation of a "stalwart of biblical truth."
Jordan, you're being used. You're acting like a spiritual fool. You need to grow up and stop putting your trust in Christian celebrities. You need to be like the Bereans, who did not even trust an apostle, but were commended in the Bible for first verifying what he said.
"Don and R.C. are the best of friends, Don and Ligonier have a great relationship"
Would your best friend falsely accuse you of leaking to the blogosphere, and then fire you without a dime of severance pay or any insurance benefits, after cutting your pay for 'not showing up to work' following a stroke (when the President does the same thing while pulling in a 6-figure income)?
Does that constitute a "great relationship?"
You have been deceived, my friend.
Find new counselors, or quit passing on what they're feeding you.
Leave it all in God's hands. If Ligonier is in the wrong, it will be exposed. If the blogger is trying to split the ministry or discredit God and his messengers , well, as what Jesus would say,"It would be better to tie a millstone around his neck and cast it into the sea!"
Post a Comment
<< Home